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Architects, Lawyers and Prostitutes
10 November 2005 | Category: Architecture Debates
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Came across this quote from the blog Housebuilder’s Update , while reading the blog, the title of the post “What is it with architects and contracts?” caught my attention, and I just got to blog about it. So, what is your opinion on the issue?
Whenever you see the word “Client” in something to do with building, you know there just has to be an architect involved because no one else in the building game ever refers to anyone as “clients.” It is such a strange word, isn’t it? In a shop you are a customer, on a train you are a passenger, in a hospital you are a patient, in a class you are a student, in the economy at large you’d be a consumer. But client? The only people who have clients are lawyers, architects and prostitutes, all of whom have to live with the reputation that they are simply out to screw you. Only the prostitute is honest about it.”
Tags: Architects, Lawyers, Prostitutes
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45 Comments
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Becki
on July 9th, 2007how true…I have never met an architect that was honest and actually worked for their buck. Normally, they ride the fence of “the owner is stupid or the contractor screwed it up”. Architects NEVER assume responsibility for their own mistakes and misrepresentations. Interior designers are even worse because they recommend all this crap material that is normally expensive and difficult to find. And when the contractor who has years of experience in actually building something, makes the comment that the drawing is not going to work, the architect becomes the diva with the “I designed it so make it work attitude”. But when the materials that the architect demands, starts to fail…who is to blame? The architect points at the owner for excepting the drawing and then at the contractor for following the drawings. The architect is totally blameless, don’t look at me I just drew it…. Aren’t architects great?
John
on July 20th, 2007That is what happen if you don’t understand the written contract between ‘Owners, Architect, & Contractor’. If you are not good in technical magic you need a lawyer.
jamesgeorgeinedu2
on September 26th, 2007architects are very lazy. drawings are never complete, ideas and arguments follow different streams… what we call architecture today is the 10% disaster that will lead to our extinction. (10% is the usual fee in my country.)thank you for pointing out the madness within…
Javier
on October 1st, 2007Well on the answer quote… most designers have “clients” not just architectural designers. Just so you know.
mai
on November 13th, 2007lazy?! ha i take it you know alot of architects then?(!) only if you did you’d know they are the hardest working people around. what they do is just incredibly time consuming
Jason
on December 1st, 2007In my experience only poor contractors say things like this. They’re pissed that architects do their job and hold standards. It cuts into the contractors miller time.
Alan
on January 2nd, 2008I have this impression you hate architecture/architects?! lol why are you studying it then?
Ronald Butaran
on May 3rd, 2008Lazy Architects? Do they exist? I think not, you can’t be an architect if you are lazy, yeah it should count then, Even an architecture student can’t be considered as lazy monkey. It’s just that architectural work are different from all other works since it is a science of everything, 100% considerations and 100% decision making, so if I were you, try to estimate the number of working drawing that are needed to finish a single structure, let see!
hendra
on May 7th, 2008LAZY ?, I don’t think so, they (Architecs) were spend a lot of time to work, to serve client and so have stisfied. Designing is very currious & unify so many needs or demand through a long process I think.
Architecture is poetry, and as a poetry it must be contemplated very well to understend.
It’s right ?
Jon
on May 12th, 2008Architects are not lazy… They are just dumb enough to trust the wannabe architects right out of college to write thier specs and screw up the plans. The real problem is that “real architects” are spread thin, at-least in the region I work in. It is just disappointing that they allow these mistakes to take place and then try to justify it. Ambiguity is the biggest crock o sh#t I deal with everyday. Say what you mean! And for the last time Architects… STOP MIXING PERFORMANCE AND DESIGN SPECS…..
Marvin
on May 19th, 2008Well Jon, lots of architects aren’t good ones, because good architects would probably starve to death until someone with a good bucket accept their madness and let us do our job, or just win a couple of contests and get famous and then do whatever they want, umm well nah there are really good architects, most of them unknown, the ones who don’t really care about money, and there is also the crap architect, this one is only interested in selling and selling, if you live in US you will def. see a lot of those there. They only “design” to make as much money as they can, not because they love it, see architecture is an art and as an artist you can’t sell yourself, the ones that sell themselves aren’t real architects.
Flo
on May 22nd, 2008Majority of Architect’s today are really suckup. Because they depend to much in computer CAD tools and calculators. They can even visualized using their own brain. Even in their hand writing is just like a doctor’s prescription. They can not do something without their gadgets. Realisticly their client knows better than them. They just follow otherwise they don’t get paid. And that is really suck………
Lam
on May 27th, 2008Oh, Flo, how misled you are. Architects aren’t stuck up because they CAD. That would be like saying accountants are evil because they use Excel, or the Nasdaq is sacriligious because it’s all computerised. Yes, most architects should be able to visualise, and if not, sketch out their ideas – it’s the basic fundementals they learn at school. And no, clients shouldn’t know more about architecture than architects (unless the client is an architect). Would you know more about a lawyers profession than a lawyer? Both the lawyer and the architect have to go for universtiy training, both have to go for tests and examinations and both have a set of rules they need to follow (architects have their standards).
But whether or not you think architects are stuck up, I leave to you. I know quite a few architects who are anything BUT stuck up, though.
Diego
on July 13th, 2008ARCHITECT = PSYCHOLOGIST + CONSTRUCTOR + INTERIOR DESIGN
Some can add to the ecuation FATHER or even OFFICE OWNER. Then problems start to be bigger! Lazy…? you are completely crazy!
Dana
on July 16th, 2008Most generalizations follow the same model: All (something/someone) are (this/that). I think all architects are human, and therefore are susceptible to the issues that human beings possess in one way or another. Laziness, creativity, perseverance, honesty, dishonesty, aptitude for the visual, reliance on technology, etc.
I am sorry if you had a bad experience with a person who works in architecture, just remember that they probably had some issues before the put their architect label on.
Gbenga
on July 19th, 2008Architects aren’t stuck up or lazy,no. Most people just don’t undertsand what they are about and out of ignorance they blame the Architects when things go awry. Like in all other profession you have lazy and incompetent Architects so its not fair to generalize that all Architects are so. An Architect is always thinking in the best interest of the Client and project preventing the contractor from taking advantage of the client. Architects ar eone of the most hardworking people around.
parr
on July 19th, 2008I am a 3D Artist.
It has never been a time when an architect didn’t change mind when seeing the rendering. I feel that architects suffer from “design is infinite” paradox, where they can’t decide how to finish a design. The only time they can make a decision is only when deadline is 2 hours away! Thats when my job starts, in 2 hours, I have to both add new design change and create a masterpiece rendering for the client to see!
I wish architects had more confidence in their design decision, at least once…
akriti
on August 19th, 2008i think architects and architecture rocks….whatever said and done architects are people who arnt the accepted part of the society and are extremely proud about it because of thier madness..
but,THEY HAVE THE TIME OF THEIR LIFE…
SO…GUYZ V ROCK
Cat
on August 20th, 2008Parr, I absolutely feel your pain as far as last minute changes go. I’ve seen it happen many times before and the poor 3D artist is left with all the pressure on their shoulders. This is an unfortunate part of the design process when you’re working with perfectionists, which often in the architecture industry, you are. This is part of why architects get such a bad wrap amongst associated professions and trades – for example, when an architect goes out on site and sees that a detail hasn’t been done to his or her expectations, he or she is contractually obligated to ensure that the client gets what the client has paid for and approved. Try telling the builder this though – they’re usually just trying to make a profit whereever possible, and even if they think they know a better way of doing things (which is occasionally the case), this doesn’t mean they can simply do it without the clients permission.
All architects I know are such perfectionists that they would rather run a project at a loss to get things right for their client. My current workplace did this for a multi-million dollar project for over a year, simply because the builder was cutting corners whereever possible in order to increase their profit margin. What’s the point in getting the clients to approve 500+ drawings if the builder is going to ignore them all anyway?
renie
on September 1st, 2008haha.. almost all professionals relay on the new technologies… like engineers they compute and analyzes structures using their calculators and computer analysis softwares… so.. suck up.. doctors cannot diagnose a patient without the medical new technologies…contractors only focuses to finish the projects and be payed.. architects working hard to build and accomplish his/her masterpiece and dreams to be built.. to be appreciated..
amcx
on September 3rd, 2008What’s with everyone’s masturbation on the idea of over generalization? “Many”, maybe. But “all”? Have you personally met every single architect, or every single interior designer, that’s ever existed?
Additionally, how can we make full judgement about a career from a biased standpoint? Of course those who have experienced the field of architecture know that architects -arent- lazy, but from a client point of view drawings and designs apparently make themselves and are things that housewives can do if they grabbed a pen and paper.
How can we make ANY conclusion, without experiencing the full story? And more importantly, WHY do we need to make these conclusions?
Over generalization. It says something about your narrow mind. And no, agreeing does not make you “opinionated”.
Spare me commenters.
Ana
on September 19th, 2008well…
Everybody have to do their job
Everybody needs a job
So cooperate with everybody and make things happen…
Architech dont be upset if people say you are crazy or dumb.. bcoz maybe u are… Its all started with a single point..
Crazy ha….
Googirl
on September 30th, 2008In any profession, anybody with a rotten heart would ’screw’ any client just to make a profit. The issue I think is not much about the profession, but what’s in the heart. It’s just that sad, we live in a fallen world.
eq one
on November 4th, 2008talk to my hand james!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lazy??????
howard abiff
on November 10th, 2008architects?they’re like batman,as joker told him,”because for them,you’re just a freak,like me”..im an architect,i guess,im crazy..
kyrios
on November 12th, 2008i’m a 3D artist myself. and i’ve work with many architects. but, the one you guys have been talking about is not entirely architects faults. for example. once i had to render a house for only 3 hours, know why? coz the owner changed something at the last minutes and then they want to see the big picture in minutes count. they don’t care coz they have money. and what about the architect? they NEED money! just like me too. that’s why they had to do it, and i had to do it. so? and what about the reletionship between architect and contractor? usually the owner “WANT” something and the architects had to figure it out by themselves. and sometimes it took a lot of time to work it out. and when it comes to final decision? the client smiles and give a “good to go” sign on paper. know what happend next? if the building is build by the architect demand, sometimes it need more time. and time = money. so… you know what i mean? the contractor will say a lot of stuffs so that they could cut time consuming, including “renovate” the design.
face it guys. everybody needs money, so everybody must work. i’ve seen worst architect ever and i’ve seen the best architect too. but not only that. i’ve seen other worst people in mylife, so don’t argue on something not important. most people arguing something to make them feel better. but don’t you ever think differently? that the other will also argue to make them feel better? so don’t blame only on architect. you are not making sense at all. maybe you just met a not good at all architect, but not all architects are like that. they work their ass to make a living. and they work very-very-very hard, man.
to jamesgeorgeinedu2, who said architects are lazy? one of a hundred maybe, but not all of them. sometimes they have to work from dusk till dawn. you don’t see the process, you only see the result, yet you are saying something that is complitely not making an sense at all righ now. lazy? the most fundamental question right now is, “have you ever been an architect yourself”? have you? what do you know about architect? i’m saying this, even though i’m just a 3D artist, is because you all not making any sense. you see one stupid architect, but you say all architects are stupid. you know how many architects in the whole world? have you met ALL OF THEM before you said that they are stupid, lazy, bla-bla-bla? have you? see… that’s why i said you are not making any sense here.
drew
on December 11th, 2008ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR- sheakespeare
Andrea
on December 14th, 2008Any person who thinks architects are lazy should go to a university studio at any time of the day or night, and you will find every studio space with someone working. They want their design to be the best, and most of the time, they have been there since early in the morning, like 7am. I am a student, and my studio this past semester had no windows. Often, we’d go out to get dinner and be surprised that it was dark out. (Dinner time might be at 9pm.)Lots of the students work part time, either in firms or in food service or in retail, just to pay their tuition bills. Don’t ever say that we are lazy. We do what ever it takes to get the job done.
Deen
on January 17th, 2009Architects work according to the client brief. Now whether the client changes his mind in the process thats different. But we as Architects we know that our work will always reflect the client intention.
goober squidly
on February 13th, 2009Man I HATE You stupida insipid ARCHITECTS. I have workin Engineering for 20 years now and it is SO apparent that you guys / gals cannot use AUtocad to save your LIFE!
Learn What NORTH is. Learn that Not all lines are 90 degrees. (Like Streets) they look 90 but they are NOT. Offsets from these lines affect the project. When an Engineer gives you a Base Drawing.. DOn’t Scale it. Don’t ROtate it. ANd PLEASE PLEASE Learn how to use more than 1 layer. Not all lines go on the SITE layer.
I wish Architectural schools would teach some of these basic principles and learn how to get along with Other Disciplines.
Out !
SillyBug
on February 14th, 2009I think a lot of the misconception about architects and what they do is due to a severe lack of knowledge on clients’ and sometimes even contractors’ lack of knowledge about what architects do. We architects assume that some of what we do should be obvious, at least by common sense. In fact general public and clients rarely have a sense of what exactly an architect does, how s/he should do it, what factors effect the balance between time, money and quality, the sacred trinity of architectural work/performance/outcome.
I think we are to blame to the extend where we don’t let societies know about ‘our world’ and our view of what we do and how we do it.
(Why isn’t there a TV show on the workings of an architecture office? I bet ratings would go through the roof with all the drama, comedy, disappointment, race against time, competition,frustrations…you name it!)
Kelvin
on February 17th, 2009Having just had my architect walk out half way through the project as, with dropping build costs, she no longer wants to work on the percentage basis she agreed to and was contracted on last years – I’ve got little useful to say about architects, except the RIBA (their association) is no better. They wrote the standard form contract that allows her to walk away/renegotiate at the end of any stage leaving me with costs to redo half the work as I get paper not Autocad files for my thousands of pounds. Crooks – you enter a contract and if it’s on a percentage then it goes up and down – except if you’re an architect, protected by a Group of architects..
Agatha
on March 1st, 2009Architects are far from lazy, but I gotta agree with comment 31–please, for the love of God, do not scale those base maps, do not create an infinite regression of next blocks, and DO use more layers than just those named 0 through 7; you know, can actually use descriptions in the layers. Also, snaps and offsets are useful tools you might what to consider using.
Terence
on March 24th, 2009what are you trying to say ? let me explain one point of view..
Architects are not builders or constructors or designers nor any of this at all (and certainly not interior designers- interior decorating). It is much more interesting than that ( thanks not to put us in an additive but in a multiplicative system) try to see them as cookers, chief orchestra, movie maker, artist, they need to know how to do even if they don’t do.
The world inspired them, us. You can’t blame all the architects for some isolated thing they are all not doing well because our jobs is to know HOW THINGS WORK TOGETHER. (i mean bad use of autocad, or this kind of detail – as an architect we should all know how that work, and how to do the best with it, but still u should consider that old architects are not used with those tools- what are you askind them? )
We sure need to hierarchise the tasks, organize, pick a point of view (mesured) and offer something more than just a building.
Every project has many solutions, and every project needs its analysis/context to be understood. This is a work nobody else can do. So, please, when you talk about how to do layers in autocad, archicad, 3Ds, rhino, flash, illustrator, photoshop or anything, be sure that the one who doens’t understand the point is you. (When u read a book, if you don’t like 1 sentence in the whole book would you say the writer is bad ?)
Architecture is not made of architecture but can be made with all the rest.
Anyway, you need also to understand that being architects from now on was : find a problem and solve it. As in philosophy, each time it brings a new problem. Now if you want to criticise architects, maybe it’s better to see How they are doing it. Sometimes would be better to try to do something “interesting” but that means start form 0, and create a library of contents and analysis in order to create the project. But at least if we don’t pretend to solve a problem we may be able to do something surprising, different, to keep your eyes open ; )
this is how there can have actors (public) and spectators (architects). You don’t see the framework but the effect of it. – what are u talkin’ about ? desires?
How do you do a democratic architecture -have you think about it? >> – architecture is made with money and is still for kings and princes -
but diamonds are always found in the middle of rough stones (crap stones) and as cities just need a bit of architecture, bad architects are not a so big deal but another constraint – data to use or not in our design.
Architects are not god, and misunderstood always exist between what ppl want to say and what they want to hear or not…
shit, have to work – that was my break ..
cheers, and good continuation. Go back to my final project (Cradle to Cradle issues)
If we just stop complaining then we can start doing something.
Before saying Architects are lazy : give a definition of lazyness : I am lazy when I don’t want to work by hand, so I use the computer, by that I can produce 5 time more documents in the same amount of time… think about it
need to go*
Mikey
on April 14th, 2009What about landscape architects?
CaseyJones
on May 4th, 2009It is interesting to note the comments made here – they all sound like people who have legitimate grumbles and complaints from a particular perspective (ie client, engineer, visualiser, designer, colleague, etc) which suggests that the real problem is a lack of communication. If a client wants to engage a professional and pay them on a percentage basis but does not like it when the budget is slashed and the architect walks away ( and why wouldn’t she -if her time is not covered by the fee) then he should have read and understood the contract BEFORE engaging her – after all it is the client’s decision to halve the budget, so he should understand the implications of changing the nature of the project. Try asking another professional (a dentist say, or a lawyer) to do work for which their time will not be covered and you will find a similar reaction. Clients need to understand that their professional advisors are not servants – on call at any time to change and revise concepts at a whim, without appropriate recompense.
The visualiser need to communicate with his architectural colleague that he requires sufficient time and information in order to do his job competently. helping out once or twice by achieving a miracle result in a short time frame should not create a precedent which will become the norm (although human nature dictates that this will be the case).
I am not an architect, but I have been in the industry for many years and I know that architects are not lazy – they spend a lot of time at work. However I do think that for a great many architects their natural territory has been nibbled away over the years by adjacent experts, such as project managers, surveyors, structural engineers, interior designers, graphic designers, exhibition designers, etc etc. Which I agree, leaves the architect metaphorically as the conductor of an orchestra. Not all architects want to work like this – but while some are good all-rounders, most are not equipped to carry out all of these roles (but it doesn’t stop them believing they can – leading to some of the problems highlighted above).
Architect bashing is fun, because they wear their hearts of their sleeves they make easy targets – but let’s face it the architect carries the can for a bad building, not the QS or structural engineer – they need the team’s support to achieve their objectives, balancing the needs of the client and the regulatory and budgetary constraints.
Chris
on May 8th, 2009Architects? lazy? lol u have nooooooo idea what youre talking about. Im just a student of archi, and my blood is already 99% diluted with coffe im sure! God knows how much i’d sleep once i graduate and would have to deal with ppl who have it out for us
Lary
on May 13th, 2009Architects are cool cause they rule. get it
i also
riki
on June 16th, 2009i am a student of architecture and i love it.i have to say that you people talk like this because you are gealous about us,because you dont understand that the school of architecture is very very hard you’ll have to study 7 hard years to be a senior architect 7 yearssssssss.so please think before you talk ok?
P.S i am courious about your profession,how hard have you worked to graduate except medicine
russell
on June 23rd, 2009“You don’t have to be smart to be an architect. You just have to be able to stay awake.”
joe
on June 23rd, 2009The problem with this blog is everyone on here is either an architect feeling defensive(they do that 40hrs a week its gonna be their initial reaction) or a contractor (already have a bad name for being lazy not on time etc.) Im coming from the middle i work with both(im not a rep either) and have seen many problems in both. The real reason people have issues with architects are because there are flaws in their drawings and always will be. A roofer needs to know about roofing and a cement guy needs to know about cement. The architect needs to know about both and everything in between. Theres no way anyone can know everything thats why generals hire subs. The real concern begins when the architect is unable to understand they are not perfect and want to tell proffessionals what is right or wrong about something they just pulled a generic/canned spec on. Many architecs go out of there way to write limits in there specs on profit margins etc for generals. If asked to see there profit margin do u think they would show u absolutely not. They over pay themselves and force generals to lose money , jobs, employees jobs while trying to make the “clients bill lower”. They put out jobs 5 days before bid and only except rfi’s or preapprovals 10 days before bid. Ya thats not shady. Lets just all be real …Engineers are the ones that do the real work. Architects draw finish plans and choose wich manufacturer rep took them to the nicest lunch. Many of the larger firms do no research. They hire a straight out of college inexpensive kid to stack paper in binders so when they need a spec they can copy and paste. I work in a very niche market all i can say is remember architects are cross between engineers and car sales. Dont believe me ask any engineer they’ll tell u the same “architects are the cut n paste of engineering”. Remeber though general ideas are for general people judge each architect individually. There are some great ones out there they are just rare. And u fresh out of college kids. I went to college too(wasnt too good in english if cant already tell) we all worked hard. A degree doesnt mean u know what your doing it just means you can say u do.
Charli
on July 11th, 2009Yah, but can engineers “design”. Where’s the “art” in being an engineer?.BLA BLA BLA………… I’ve heard them all.
I’ve worked for many years as draughtsperson in both structural engineering and architectural firms, and i’m just so tired of this age-old boring debate about who’s best. FACE IT the one IS NOT better than the other. You should ideally each one stick to what he does best, and compliment each other. Here’s a new one: What about the poor draugthsman living on coffee and adrenalin,(the pay is normally not worth mentioning)”thumbsuckin” for information while you smart “Professionals” are forever out somewhere living in a little heaven of your own? Just wondering what happened to all those “tracers” on whose sweat and tears the industry was built?
surveyor
on August 7th, 2009In my opinion being a surveyor who has to work with everybody my ranking is engineers, architects, and landscape architects bringing up the rear. LA’s are last because they have imagination, know a little math and have no design capabilities. As I always say LA’s were once engineering/architectural students that became lazy but still had a creative imagination. You might ask were do I rank surveyors, and I would tell you we don’t rank according to the rest of the professional world. We are piss ants in the construction world that people want to hire cheap, call when they needed something two days ago, and point the finger at as a scapegoat when things go wrong. Well I will tell you that honestly any bottom to middle rung employee who has had to work a year with a surveyor doing construction staking, mapping, or cadastral work and doesn’t make it through the next year it’s because they want to go back inside and pretend to make things in cad work. I always post the question to those people “you really think surveying is easy?” Well… spend a summer or winter doing it and it will change your mind and begin an appreication of what it is that we do.
Aaron B
on August 24th, 2009Architects aren’t lazy, but they sure can’t type, can they? As is obvious from this group of young practitioners. Just as a set of drawings needs long hours of careful revision, your emails and words need proofreading. Architects aren’t lazy, but they need to begin slowing down, making fewer mistakes and taking better care of output.
downunder
on August 25th, 2009I am an architect, a builder and a project manager. Yes! I have done it all. At the moment, I am making a living being a client’s representative, overseeing the work of project managers. The argument of who is the best, who is more important and who is to blame for mistakes in a building project is interesting and never ending old topic. The nuts on the wheels of a car may not be the most important component. But without them, the wheels will come off and the car will not move even though the engine is running extremely well. We all play a part in making a building and shaping our environment. The reason why architect is normally seen as the lead consultant is because the architect’s conceived idea is the second thing that comes into being after the owner’s wish to create a building. The long chain of events that happen afterwards, resulting in a finished building at the end, all link to the architect’s idea and rely on it as a base for interacting and collaborating with each other to form the building. Is this architect’s idea more important than any other disciplines, design, systems in a building project? May be and may be not. The probability is that if the initial concept is superb, the other disciplines and the end result have a higher chance of being superb. Otherwise, the converse is true. Because of this influence on the outcome that the architect’s idea can make, it puts the architect under the spotlight. However, it does not mean that other players in the process are not as important.
Not sure if it is a suitable analogy. Perhaps the architect’s idea is like the operating system in computing; and all design of various disciplines are like different software operating on this operating system platform.
We all need to learn about our peers’ work in order to collaborate successfully. There is no expert if we take oneself out of context of a team.